The present situation in the South Ossetia, the relations between Russia and Georgia, the summary of Russia–Georgia war of 2008, the danger of war activities recommencement. These are some of the topics covered in the exclusive interview for newcaucasus.com with Timur Tskhurbati, the editor in chief of the 24 Hours, the founder of ‘The People’s Party Iron’ (the South Ossetia), co-founder of Georgian-Ossetian civil forum.
– What changes has the South Ossetia undergone after the Russian-Georgian war conflict of 2008 and the independence recognition of unrecognized republic by Russia? Are there any side effects of this recognition?
– There have been many changes, and especially in the people’s mentality. However, I will be speaking about my vision of the situation. The recognition of the South Ossetia by Russia was not a big case, since I did it long ago in 1989. The Russian recognition of the independence of the South Ossetia has been a mere proof of this fact.
For most people of the South Ossetia the fact of recognition represents security. The people started feeling more secure, they now have work on construction sites. It is clearly seen what has already been done according to the buildings being built, some buildings have already been raised, and the town got much better.
There is nothing I would consider negatively from Russia’s side. But we can talk about it from the point of view of our Government. I would say that our authorities have become more Russian in their zeal, than the Russians themselves. For example, even in the shows like “Good night, kids” you hardly ever hear Ossetian language. Russia is not the one to be blamed; this is our own Government’s ‘merit’.
The pedestal of the ex-monument as a symbol of the present…
– There is a lot of information spread by the Russian Mass Media on accusations of the authorities and Eduard Kokoity, the President of the South Ossetia of corruption. It is also said that the Russian aid is being embezzled…
– I cannot prove these facts documentarily. I live in Tskhinvali and can see with my own eyes what happens there. For instance, the street lightning infrastructure is being restored, expensive light polls are being set, the railway station is being illuminated. The Monument of Lenin is being renovated and a new pedestrian alley is being set around… Besides, the pedestal has long been without a monument on it, there is nothing on it… The money laundry is obvious here. Whether this is done by Kokoity’s instructions or not, is hard for me to judge.
A town Moskovskiy can be set as an example of money laundry. The three billion rubles were spent on construction of cottages, the school and so on. The financing and constructions were done not through the budget of the South Ossetia and without intervention of our authorities. Meanwhile, as far as I know, 11 billion rubles were assimilated by the Ossetian party on the capital restoration. But there is no progress seen so far. Ideally, there should have been done thrice more than has been done in Moskovskiy. Not even half is seen… It’s difficult to say where it has all gone. There is a chance that Kokoity is not guilty at all. I think that the mediating link of Russian corruption has bound with our authorities and grand larceny is taking place. And it is clearly seen that all this does take place.
The party of local resource
-How would you explain your decision to form and take over a party in the South Ossetia? To make matters worse, the People’s Party Iron has already benn announced to be an oppositional force…
– My decision is related to the fact that a so called “Moscow Movement” was created in the South Ossetia which is being formed around people such as Albert Djussoev, Anatoly Barankevich. I consider them both patriots of the South Ossetia, one of them held a post in the government, the other played out as a Maecenas sponsoring various projects in the South Ossetia. But they are in Moscow now. And I think that if you would like to make any changes in Tskhinvali, you should be present in Tskhinvali and make them directly here.
I have come to a decision that if you would like to influence the politics in the South Ossetia, you ought to create a party, which will be supported by a local resource, by the resource of local Tskhinvali authorities.
– The party’s aim – to take positions of power?
– If not to take the positions of power, then at least to create an authorized, respectable force which will assist in running fair elections on the basis of law. I think that the present Parliament of the South Ossetia is very weak. We do need a real force which will help the region to move forwards, towards democracy and human worth. Twenty years of my life were spent on the war, and I do not want something like a Banana Republic to be built. I would like my republic to be democratic and self-sufficient. And I do hope that in this case Georgia will have to recognize the republic, since there are no reasons for not doing it. This is of a vital importance for me. Almost all republics of the USSR were recognized by means of force, i.e. only the strongest ones were recognized. Personally I want the South Ossetia to be recognized in a judicial way, so that it sets an example of democracy unlike any other country and there would be no reasons for not recognizing it.
The right to live where one was born…
– Speaking of the universal values we first need to solve a humanitarian problem of Georgian refugees. And, as we know, some parts of Georgian villages in the South Ossetia do not exist anymore, in fact, they are completely demolished. In your opinion, how can this problem be solved?
– First of all, this problem should be solved by those ones who caused it, and these are neither Ossetians nor the authorities of the South Ossetia. With hindsight, no fewer Ossetian villages had been burnt out. The topic of fifteen Georgian villages that were burnt out is being widely discussed in the Media. But I would like to say that three out of those fifteen villages were situated in the Georgian enclave and were 100 percent inhabited by the Ossetians which were burnt out in the 90s. And it is absolutely wrong to consider them Georgian ones.
I would like to add that the Ossetians did not burn the villages based on ethnic characteristics but the military bases were being destroyed.
The ex-Akhalgori region is now under the jurisdiction of the South Ossetia. Could you name at least one household burnt there? There are also villages Karsman, Sinagur in the region of Djava. They consist of 100 and 60 percent of Georgians respectively. None of the households have been damaged there. Archnet is a village situated a kilometer away from Nul and Avnev. Nul and Avnev were burnt though there are still two families residing there. However, Archnet, which consists of 40 percent of Georgians, had no households set on fire and the people still live there. Therefore, there is no room for talking about ethnic hatred. And even more, there are Georgian families, Toroshelidze, Gvritishvili, Chikhladze, who still huddle together with their Ossetian relatives. They come from the burnt out Georgian villages and they happened to be unneeded by anyone. They are unneeded in Georgia where they are considered betrayers, since they are not willing to abandon the South Ossetia and are willing to live where they used to. The Government of the South Ossetia has not coped with accommodation for burnt-down people in Tskhinvali yet. I hope that the Ossetian authorities will start restoring their houses, yet, there has been nothing said on this topic. It came to me as a surprise that those Georgian families decided to stay in the South Ossetia. I am planning to raise this issue, but frankly, I do not know what will be the outcome of this. I hope that the authorities will be sensible enough and the houses of those who stayed in the South Ossetia will be restored as well.
Speaking of those ones who are now on the Georgian territory… Time should pass… But I do believe that each human has the right to live where he was born. One of the aims of our party is to put everything back under the law. And these issues should not be discussed apart from the problem of the Ossetian refugees who fled from Georgia.
– You are one of the founders and active members of the South-Ossetian and Georgian Civil Forum. Do you keep in touch and have meetings with your Georgian colleagues? What has been done by you after the war conflict of 2008 within the framework of this forum? Do the civilians of the South Ossetia show interest towards a dialogue with Georgia?
– We can say that the Ossetian sector shows no interest in cooperating with the Georgian party. Georgia is something very distant and remote for the majority of the South Ossetians. I try to look a bit more thorough at this issue. The South Ossetia is adjacent to Georgia by three quarters of its border, and only one quarter of the South Ossetia boarders with Russia. That is why it is vitally important for the South Ossetia to regulate relations with Georgia. That is one of the reasons I’m engaged in it. And, yet, I would strongly like to emphasize that I am one of the people who by all means support the independence of the South Ossetia. However, I do believe that we must regulate the relations with Georgia and the sooner it happens, the better.
I’m not into closed border…
– It is being said that the South Ossetia is turning, or has already turned, completely into a big Russian military base. According to the Russian authorities saying, the number of the bases built in the South Ossetia may turn it into a mere military adjunct?
– As far as I know, there are approximately three thousand Russian troops in the South Ossetia. There were two regiments dislocated in the South Ossetia before the USSR collapsed; one aviation regiment and the other one – field-engineering, the number of troops of both is in an approximate equality to the present one. This did not lead to the South Ossetia losing it identity, considering the fact that the Ossetians used to serve in the same regiments. And if they used to be concentrated in Tskhinvali, now they are dispersed along the whole border – Kvaisa, Leningorskiy and Znaurskiy regions, as well as Tskhinvali itself. I do not see any danger in it. This is a question of the Ossetian dignity whether they will be able to improve their culture, preserve self-identity, and Russia does not interfere with it, at least I do not see any signs of it. The Russian militaries represent a greater security in the mind of the Ossetian people than the promises by Saakashvili, Georgian authorities, European and International institutions. This means that in the past twenty years the South Ossetia was convicted that the promises can be broken. In August 2008 just two hours before the military actions began, Saakashvili had announced that there would be no actions…. Europe and even more the USA support Saakashvili, and therefore, the South Ossetia does not trust them. That is why the majority of the Ossetian people would rather be a part of Russian military bases than become a part of Georgia. The South Ossetia is psychologically disposed exactly in this way. There is another thing. The intellectuals would like to revive our Republic which lost its statehood in the twelfth century. And, I do not see Georgian government’s good-will concerning this matter. Their actions have brought us to the present situation.
– What is your opinion on the strategy proposed by the Georgian Government at the beginning of this year concerning the conflict zones – “The Participation by means of cooperation”, the purpose of which is to resolve the conflict by means of peaceful approaches?
– I am not well aware of it. But constantly repeated by the Georgian Government term ‘the integration’ makes me feel tense. There has to be an equal partnership. I also think that there should be a law on the boarder, there should be legal border-crossing points, and the civilians ought to have the opportunity to communicate. This all has to be done on an equal basis. I am not fond of the closed border, and, therefore, I raise issues concerning its opening; and the authorities take advantage of this by accusing me of pro-Georgian attitudes of mind. This is a typical political speculation.
There is a border between Russia and Japan, but this does not mean that Russia will surrender the Kurile Islands. Russia is not going to surrender them, and, yet, the Japanese visit Russia and vice versa.
In my opinion, the border should be legalized at least from the Ossetian side. The Georgian side is not willing to do so yet. When I enquire the Ossetian authorities on why there is no law on border, they can’t give me a clear answer. I hope that the law will finally be passed by the Ossetian Parliament and my pretensions will finally be gone. For now there are only unendorsed border crossings both from our side and the Georgian one, people are arrested… No one really needs this, this causes extra tensions.
– As far as I know, there are several dozens of the citizens of Georgia being imprisoned in Tskhinvali Prison, the Ossetian side claims that the Ossetians are being kept in Georgia. To your mind, how should this issue be solved?
– If I had my way, I would exchange all imprisoned ones according to the principle ‘all for all’. This would be a sign of a good will from the both sides. There are several sentenced to life Ossetian guys in Georgian prisons, they were accused of terrorism. I know those guys – Marek Dudaev, Zasseev… Those people should not be ranked as terrorists, they should be at least reckoned as the prisoners of war. Georgia does not admit this fact, which builds up more tensions. Georgia could give them amnesty as an exception. There are many ways of solving the problem of convicts. If only the authorities showed the will, the problem would be solved.
Annexation to Russia is needed neither for Russia nor for the South Ossetia
– The head of the South Ossetian Government is now a citizen of Russia, Vadim Brovtsev, there are some other Russian officials in the Government. Doesn’t it seem to be a sign of Kremlin’s pressure on the South Ossetia?
– The Russian officials have been invited by the Government of the South Ossetia and it is usually explained that there are no qualified specialists in the Republic. It appears to me that this case should be seen from a bit different perspective: there are a lot of specialists of the Ossetian ethnicity in Russia and we should attract them actively. I would say that this was neither dictated by Russia nor imposed, it was purely Ossetian initiative. If I was asked, I would prefer the ethnic Ossetians to be invited in order to preserve the national balance. And, generally speaking, people are satisfied with the Brovtsev’s performance.
– Eduard Kokoity has recently been claiming about the possibility of the South Ossetia joining the composition of the Russian Federation. What is the attitude towards this in the South Ossetia? Are there supporters of the independency and returning to the jurisdiction of Georgia?
– Let’s begin with the ending. I am not aware of anyone who would like to return back to Georgia but, more likely, there is such kind of people, these are the residents of Leningorsky region. Over the past 20 years this region has been integrated into Georgia. The people in this region are under unenviable circumstances and, it is very unlikely, that anyone would talk about it openly.
The referendum was held in the South Ossetia which showed that the majority supports the independence. The annexation to Russia is needed neither for the South Ossetia nor for Russia. The main vector will always be oriented towards Russia, but later to Georgia as well. Personally, I am a great supporter of the independence of the South Ossetia and our political party will always keep to this direction.
There has been a huge brain leakage from the South Ossetia over the past 20 years. And if we run a survey in the streets, it is quite likely that there will be more supporters of the annexation to Russia. However, if the people are explained what the independence means, then the idea of being independent will be supported by all with a very few exceptions.
– What is the present situation in Akhalgori like? What are the conditions of the residents, who, as you have mentioned have lived in Georgia for the past 20 years, are now under the jurisdiction of Tskhinvali?
– I do not have much information from there. But I do know that they have retained the freedom of moving back and forth. A lot of people have left the region but no one impede their return. As far as I am concerned, doctors and teachers are already assigned salaries. Of course, there are problems, for instance, irrigation of agricultural fields or electricity supply.
The residents are gradually getting used to living there. But I would like the Ossetian authorities to pay more attention to the region. There are now talks about the possibility of creating a free economical zone in Leningorsky region. If this is done, it will be beneficial for both Georgia and the South Ossetia. I am sure, however, that this zone will be blocked by the Georgian government. The economical zone of this kind had been functioning in Ergneti until it was liquidated by the enforcements of Mikhail Saakashvili’s Administration.
And the price for recognition
– The Russian human right activists, Valeria Novodvorskaya and Konstantin Borovoy, visited Tbilisi in the end of February. According to Novodvorskaya saying, Russia is planning a new military aggression against Georgia. How do you think, is there a possibility of military actions recommencement between Russia and Georgia, including the territories of the South Ossetia?
– I am not as informed as Novodvorskaya or Borovoy. I assume that this claim is their current political state of affairs. I do not see any sense of Russia doing so. Russia has paid much for the recognition of Abkhazia and the South Ossetia and keeps paying. It is not a secret for anyone that Russia could seize Tbilisi as well in 2008, however, did not do so. I don’t think that Russia needs a new war. And the South Ossetia is the least interested body, since we can be used as the stage for the military actions. I hope this won’t happen.
– Eduard Kokoity has not once given publicity to the pretensions towards Georgia, especially, concerning the territory adjacent to Truso Gorge. Don’t his pleads seem to be a sign of the future possibility of military clashes?
– You should ask about this Kokity himself. Even at the times of Russian Empire it was 100 percent populated with the Ossetians. Today, the Gorge is deserted, no one lives there. The most part has moved to live in the North Ossetia. Even before the August conflict the South Ossetia had been raising the issue of interchanging these territories for Leningorsky region. It is not simply a region for the Ossetians, there are Ossetian sacred places. There is one of the three most important sanctuaries of the Ossetian people in the village of Taranzhelos. I would compare it with Ararat Mountain for Armenians, you can see it, but you cannot touch it… I think that this issue could be regulated in a sensible way. But I do not like militant announcements. It’s clear, that there will be no military enforcements from the South Ossetian side, and they should not be taken.
– After August 2008 Russia achieved the withdrawal of OSCE observers from the region. Nowadays, the international community suggests the return of the observers to the South Ossetia and Abkhazia. How do you think, will the international monitoring be useful in these regions and why Tskhinvali is against it?
– We are talking about the creditworthiness. The observers had been present in the South Ossetia for many years as a result of which the known things happened in 2008. But I do believe that the more observers we have in the South Ossetia, the better it is for our country. This is my personal subjective opinion. However, the Ossetian authorities do not share my point of view. I haven’t a faintest idea of the Russian authorities’ point of view.
The observers in the South Ossetia should make people trust in them. It’s not like this now.
– Would you like to add anything to what has already been said?
– I would like to say that if Georgia wants to have normal relations with the South Ossetia, it has to accept the South Ossetia as an equal state. Let’s live on equal terms, friendly, and without any pretensions to one another. I do understand that the Georgian politicians are the hostages of their own ambitions. But who has been interfering with them to solve the problem peacefully in 20 years’ time? No one. Nevertheless, they decided to resolve the conflict by means of implementing the military force. The South Ossetia is the least to blame. Georgia has always been declaring its attribution to European values. The European Union was created on the basis of a good will, and none of the states were annexed by force, on the contrary, everyone was asking to join the EU. Now, we have to talk about revival of some relations, about restoration of trust, and then time will tell… A good will and unwillingness of a war are the key points. The fact that Mikhail Saakashvili refuses to sign a non-aggression and non-use of force pacts seems to be very indicative. This fact causes tension and deprives the forces who would like to run talks with Georgia of the supportive arguments.
Irakli Chikhladze, for newcaucasus.com
