Russian-Georgian relations, maintaining contacts between representatives of civil societies of the two countries, prospects of conflict settlement and assessment of the possibility of a new war – these and many other issues are discussed by Andrey Kalikh, director of human rights and anti-corruption programs of the Russian Center of democratic development in his exclusive interview to newcaucasus.com.
– What, in your opinion, is the foreign policy of Russia towards Georgia?
– It seems to me as if there is no foreign policy towards Georgia. All relations are frozen, there is no diplomatic relations; borders are blocked and the passing is limited. Russian Foreign Office doesn’t have any strategy towards Georgia and people there do not know what to do with this conflict. Especially considering the events taking place in Russia itself – presidential elections, inevitable change of presidents, or as we call it – reshuffle, when not only foreign policy towards Georgia is frozen but also domestic policy is stuck; no decisions are taken until a new President’s appointment. Nobody knows what a new President is longing for. The same is with policy towards Georgia. Anyway we continue exchanging tough statements. The situation reminds of a serious foreign-policy confrontation, cold war and stringency between two countries as if the matter is about two really equal enemies. For example, between Russia and USA or Russia and European Union. In this case it is a matter of little Georgia. Moreover, foreign policy is based on the propagandistic myth – any foreign-policy activities of Georgia are assessed as anti-Russian. Also, unfortunately, vice versa – Georgian officials react, to my mind, too hard and to no purpose concerning inadequate statements of our leaders. One could observe permanent squabbles, piquing and provocation. Unfortunately, both sides keep up provocations and yield to provocative actions as well.
– Do you think that vectors of foreign policy of Russia and Georgia are similar to each other?
– Russia must become the country that will take the first step towards peace and decrease of stringency. Georgia has done much in this direction. There was a promise that conflicts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia won’t be settled in an armed manner. There were statements concerning the readiness for a dialogue from the side of administration of the President Saakashvili. Liberalization of a visa system, especially towards citizens of the North Caucasus, – is a very grave step towards meeting. There are almost no return steps from the side of Russia. Georgian citizens haven’t been given Russian visas recently, now the situation has changed a little bit. The hostile rhetoric continues to dominate in speeches of official representatives of both countries; and militarization of the region – Abkhazia and South Ossetia – is continuing. I reckon that the conflict is maintained artificially and is stirred up by harsh and provocative statements and responses from both sides. This situation is artificial namely in the fact that Georgia and Russia aren’t enemies. This is an artificial conflict, having arisen from the remnants of Soviet Imperia and Soviet unsolved problems. And instead of making honest joint efforts to settle this conflict we are observing the reversed process when the conflict is puffed up…
– What is the attitude of civil society of Russia towards the war of 2008 and recognition of independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia by Russia?
– The civil society’s attitude towards the worsening of Russian-Georgian relations is bitterly negative due to the fact that the war was preceded by the worsening of relations in 2006-2007, deportation of citizens according to their nationality. In other words there was a whole chain of conflicts, the culmination of which became a war… Unfortunately, the war represents a big episode of confrontation between two countries. I remember when in 2006 during the demonstration on the Pushkin Square in Moscow I myself was walking with a sign: “I’m Georgian” and there were lots of people like me. Worsening of Georgian-Russian relations was being assessed in the context of the common growth of anti-Putin criticism from the side of the civil society and considering the most powerful growth of hurrah-patriotism in Russia. The propaganda machinery has been working nonstop over persuading the Russian society that Georgia is a little aggressive state bought by America and that the West is standing behind; that the enemies attacked our citizens in South Ossetia and stuff like this, which in reality was only propagandist myth. However, the civil society hasn’t been watching TV for a long time; it gets information from other sources. The delusion was obvious, a huge state deception, and, of course, we have all understood that it was our fault as well. We understood that we had little contact with the Georgian civil society; we had little connection with Georgian non-governmental sector; we gave little consideration to those processes that were on in Georgian society as we had too much to do in our own country. I well remember that immediately after the 5-days’ war the Russian-Georgian dialogue was intensified and new contacts arose simultaneously. There weren’t direct flights and I, for instance, reached Georgia in 2009 through Istanbul, and many others – through Kiev. And if earlier we weren’t aware of Georgia, then after war there was a strong demand to get to know Georgia better, see our Georgian friends, find out how they live. We were getting more information; we started to read more from Georgian sources. It’s strange but namely due to this conflict, Georgia became more recognizable to the world. In this particular case Russia of course lost in its propagandist war; approval of Russian activities has been decreased in the world and the Russian image has received a terrible impact. In the aspect of propaganda, Georgia has won and Russia, vice versa, – has lost.
If we abstract away from the civil society, then, on the whole, the recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia hasn’t caused craze among Russians neither in negative nor in positive aspect. There was hysteria from the side of pro-Kremlin organizations: “Look, we were right to stand up for little but proud states!” Russia recognized their independence but this entailed aggravation of relations with the rest of the world: USA and EU. Due to this recognition we were left alone again. The escalation of the conflict around South Ossetia and Abkhazia took place far from Georgian borders. Not without reason one of the famous Russian experts, the head of the Union of Foreign Defensive Policy, Sergey Karaganov after the conflict was writing with bitterness in his article that he is very sorry but there is no chance to push “the nuclear bludgeon” in the backyard of the history.
And when various island states like Nauru and Tuvalu after the dictatorial Venezuela began recognizing South Ossetia and Abkhazia then the “total fascination” and the feeling of disgrace came at once. We were ashamed for our country. And this feeling has remained with us till now. When I participate in various meetings or conferences, I’m frequently asked in the lobby: ”what other island states have recognized Abkhazia and South Ossetia?” People are sincerely laughing. And I, as a citizen of Russia, really feel shamed…
– Is there any danger of escalation of Russian-Georgian conflict taking into consideration growing oppositional protest and oncoming presidential elections in Russia?
– I don’t think so. The country has changed, the situation has changed. The war isn’t popular any more neither for Russian society nor for Georgian one. Moreover, I suspect that authorities are ashamed for this war as well, and they are trying to make excuse. During the last anniversary of the war, the President Medvedev was giving interview to three channels including Georgian PIK. Certainly the military rhetoric has been raised, but, on the whole, it seemed as if he was making excuses. The same with Putin. In one of his last speech, while discussing the reasons of the invasion of Russian troops into Georgia, he repeated one phrase four times: What else could we do? When a psychologist is observing Putin on TV, he definitely sees that the latter is making excuses; that he feels uneasy; that he wants the world community to forget about this as soon as possible. The Russian authorities are likely not to put up a Georgian card. They’d rather leave everything as it is until elections. According to those events that are taking place now, I don’t think that conflict escalation is possible. However, it may well be so.
– And how does Georgia use the card of outer enemy represented by Russia?
– Undoubtedly, the foreign-policy card is being put up by the Georgian side as well. Antagonistic rhetoric or rhetoric of besieged fortress takes place here. Unfortunately, Georgia is far from being an example of political suspension and patience, permanently losing its temper and yielding to provocation of Kremlin. When the conflict is fading away itself the reaction in a spirit of “The same to you!” only slows down its settlement. It would be nice if Georgia would show wisdom and not bellicosity. It is difficult to expect the same from upper echelon of Russia but Georgia has all chances to show its worth. Remember the same during the negotiations concerning WTO. As a result, Georgia has only won due to the decision to override a veto for Russia to enter this organization.
– Have you participated in the project “Dialogue between Russian and Georgian professionals” where Russian group has met with Georgian state officials, ministers, representatives of non-governmental organizations and experts? To what extent could these kind of projects influence on the improvement of Russian-Georgian relations in the time when contacts are frozen on the highest level?
– The whole point is that, namely in this epoch when official contacts are frozen we have this unique way of similar meetings and exchanges. This is the only thing we can do now. The people’s diplomacy is a wonderful tool to prevent conflicts. And in this particular case, as it seems to me, this works perfectly. And, I hope, other Russian participants of the program have three main impressions:
First – it’s a continuation of reforms; sharp economic growth despite the conflict and high level of social-political activities. The observations and impressions cause discussions in our group. We, observing what’s going on in your country, take this discussion further to Russia; we will discuss what we have seen and heard here with our colleagues. Not everything is true that is presented by our media.
Second, a very essential result – is that we want to do something together; possibilities of further cooperation and joint projects are being discussed. We can clearly see the desire for communication, the desire to understand each other from the 10 days’ dialogue between Georgian and Russian participants. The key word here I would name amicability from both sides. We were surprised to see such benevolence from the Georgian side after all that had happened between our countries. People were happy to hear Russian speech on the streets. Russian songs were sung in cafes and restaurants especially for us. I was once shocked and captivated when a taxi-driver in Tbilisi turned off the radio and turned on the Russian song. After this particular project we became bearers of friendly relations towards Georgia in Russia.
Third key result – significant observations on discussions among Georgian participants that reflect the existence of the intensive social discourse concerning the way of reforms. And opinions of state officials and social activists, to put it mildly, not always match.
– Representatives of Georgian civil society try to find common language with Abkhazian and South Ossetian societies for a long time. There is an opinion that we need to talk one-to-one. Do you think there is a chance that Russian civil sector can play its role concerning this situation?
– Russia has an enormous pain – North Caucasus. This is painful for the state, for its internal and foreign policies, for human rights and for democratic development. This is a huge factor, influencing on our further development. The corrupted supreme-authoritarian regimes in some Northern Caucasus regions do not let democracy and economics develop not only in the regions themselves but also in Russia as a whole. This affects the mode of life of the whole country. Coming from this, the problem of Abkhazia and South Ossetia for the Russian society is not so important considering common North Caucasian problems. We still have pending problems on other borders, in particular, with Poland and Moldova. All these problems, including Abkhazia and South Ossetia need to be solved quickly when the power changes in Russia at last. We all remember Abkhazia and South Ossetia, but the life of all little quasi-state regimes on the post-Soviet space will continue as long as the Putin system exists. There are many challenges and it’s not only Caucasus. These are growing tension and discontent in the society over the problem with democracy. It’s important to achieve conduction of honest and clear elections and change this regime peacefully. This is our top priority task. When it is solved, when the power in Russia becomes more democratic, when we have normal parliament only then, unfortunately, we will have strengths to come and help you in real settlements of those conflicts.
– What should Georgia do to establish good relations and to throw a bridge of trust with Abkhazia and South Ossetia?
– The main thing Georgia should do – is to do nothing. Namely, it should develop, sail its own boat, and as we have already talked about show patience and wisdom. In this sense I’m in prayer for Georgian democracy, its development and that democratic social discourse will be able to keep the Georgian authorities from hasty actions.
I would like nothing better for Georgia than consolidation around democracy and not around the conflict. I would wish Georgia not to yield to provocations and to watch for what’s going on in Russia as namely we, today, represent young democracy not you. This is us that start everything over again and now those events that were taking place in your country in 2003 are happening now here in our country. I wish you to be benevolent, selfless and patient. I want you to demonstrate advantages of democracy, transparency and to influence on the actions taken by authorities. This is a truly high mission of any civil society.
Irakli Chikhladze, for newcaucasus.com
Photo I.Chikhladze
